Curse

kicks66 · May 06, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Ive been wondering recently with my current monk bar, when is it profitable to remove a condition using [skill]Mend Condition[/skill]. Obviously when Dazed its important to remove that, and weakness/blind/cripple/deep wound, but what about the degen skills? How long is it before the amount of health lost through degen is equal to the amount healed by +53+32 from Mend and DF? And is it energy efficient to remove it then?

Cheers
Seth

Taisayacho · May 06, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

With degen, as long as someone's not spamming it on "target ally" (say with apply poison), it's good to remove as soon as possible, because it's better to use 5 energy to remove it then, say, 20 continually spike healing to stop it from killing the person/hero/hench.

I think. :P

Hope that helps.

kicks66 · May 06, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Thats a completey differnt answer from what I expected

Ive always seen that as a bad idea. Your using 5e to heal for a relatively small amount compared to, say, WoH, thus your wasting your energy for no particular reason. Is it not far better to wait for the 50% for WoH or even just Patient?

Taisayacho · May 06, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

But it's not the healing that you're going for. The point of condition removal is condition removal, not healing (healing is the secondary bonus).

iwinthisgame · May 06, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

just a question...why are you using mend?

Taisayacho · May 06, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

I agree, dismiss condition is ftw. But still, my input stands :P

kicks66 · May 06, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

To answer your first question, degen conditions dont particularly harm the player, except for in terms of health, thus theres no point removing them unless they actually require health (which is WoH's job)

To answer the second question, the build I use in RA uses Mending Touch and Mend Condition, its just part of a build that works well for me. I prefer the dual condition removal, it seems a lot stronger than using Dismiss (which often does not heal at all except for DF)

A Urrang · May 06, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

deep wound will normally take around 100 health from your ally, therefor this is one of the main conditions to remove, along with blind, weakness and cripple (pvp mainly). Removing poison from a target when you know the opponent have apply poison is just a waste. In pve however I would say it is smart to remove degen conditions as they can drain alot of your energy by using healing skills (woh etc.)
I am not the best monk, but I dont think there were too much wrong with the stuff I just wrote

kicks66 · May 06, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Urrang

deep wound will normally take around 100 health from your ally, therefor this is one of the main conditions to remove, along with blind, weakness and cripple (pvp mainly). Removing poison from a target when you know the opponent have apply poison is jus a waste. In pve however I would say it is smart to remove degen conditions as they can drain alot of your energy by using healing skills (woh etc.)
I am not the best monk, but I dont think there were too much wrong with the stuff I just wrote

Yer I realised just as I was typing that I forgot Deep Wound and Cripple (goes to add it into first post)

And im talking from merely a PvP. Plus, even if they dont have apply poison, then say 5 secs of poison is not going to be terribly profitable to heal.

tnel28 · May 06, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

maybe i'm not getting what your saying and im not the best monk but the point of mending touch is to drop a condition not heal. if u r looking to heal over a condition, this skill isnt for you. remove any condition immediatley unless it is caused by apply poison cuz theyll just spam that on your target.

toastgodsupreme · May 06, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

spotless soul if you're just wanting to remove conditions.

Morgoth the dark · May 06, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Well priority in removing conditions should be :

1. Daze
2. DW
3. Blind (from melee / ranged classes)
4. Weakness
4. Cracked armor
5. All the rest (bleeding, poison, disease, burn )

Well it still depends on who conditions are on.

Tyla · May 06, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

You forgot Cripple, Morgoth.

Cammy · May 06, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

As a monk in RA/TA, if you want to be completely economical, remove in order of priority (note that situations will vary depending on what roles melee/casters play on your team):

1) Daze off yourself
2) Deep wound off anybody
3) Cripple off melee/yourself
4) Blind/Weakness off melee
5) Cripple off casters
6) Daze off casters
7) Cracked Armor off AL70 and above

Poison and disease will most likely be reapplied as soon as you remove them, thus wasting 5e. Bleeding is minimal degen and is easy to reapply. Burning doesn't last long enough to warrant condition removal.

This is assuming you're using Mend Condition/Mend Ailment/Dismiss Condition.

If you use draw, you can decide what to remove based on the situation. For example, if a teammate just got melee trained with eviscerate, you can draw the deep wound, heal said teammate, and likely wait for deep wound to wear off on its own since the enemy team will often beat on your teammate in an attempt to kill him/her.

But I'm bad and I like +1s so don't listen to me.

Div · May 06, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by kicks66

Ive always seen that as a bad idea. Your using 5e to heal for a relatively small amount compared to, say, WoH, thus your wasting your energy for no particular reason. Is it not far better to wait for the 50% for WoH or even just Patient?

That is your problem. You don't want to wait for health to get to 50%. The lower the person's health gets, the more likely they're going to get spiked down.

Did someone move this from Riverside?

LifesRestorer · May 06, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

its completely conditional.

the post above Divines states the conditions in order of priority in terms of removal.

for degen skills, it's based on how mcuh it will compliment the build.

for example, apply poison is pretty much spamming poison everywhere so theres not much point wasting the energy trying to get rid of it. on the other hand, poison from entangling asp being removed can take out 80 damage from a SoTS followup.

sword warriors normally have to follow the sever-gash combo. if there is no bleeding, you stop the deep wound before it is even applied.

for disease, just try and catch it early. if you can predict what target is going to be affected by it, and you think you can remove the condition before it spreads to the rest of your party, remove it. if it gets on more than one person just leave it.

for bleeding, it's either going to be lasting too short of a duration to matter or a long spammable duration from SF, where it's better to spirit bond it anyway

edited cause divine's post came while i was typing

Riotgear · May 07, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

This is sort of like asking when a good time to blow a skill through Diversion is, just on the opposite end of the desirability spectrum. You can't really apply any sort of universal rule to condition removal, because it all depends on the situation, particularly when there are other things demanding your attention, including other conditions.

Ultimately, how much it's worth it changes with the ebb and flow of each individual game, and learning to create the right answer during play is something that's much better answered through practice and experience.

Makkert · May 07, 2008, 04:26 AM // 04:26

The joke is that he didn't mention which pvp format he asks this question for. As the format defines what can / or can not be done.

In GvG, as Divine mentioned, you really rather don't want people to be spike-able.
In RA, you are often more in a position to wait for the optimal effect on a WoH, Mend Condition, etc. This also explains why one category of players (HA, GvG, arena) usually performs bad in other formats: they learned themselves things that simply don't work in other formats.

peace,

~ Makk.

urania · May 07, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Usually, in arenas one uses mend condition on a target that is degening form poison/bleeding/burning when they're at about 70-80% of their max hp.

As far as deep wound is conderned, you ofc remove it asap, unless its about wounding strike sins or dervs - in that case u'll be pretty much burning down ur energy since both of the conds can be reapplied every 3 seconds, so either just heal through it and use prots like guardian or mend touch them (draw is far better than mend cond in that case).

Cripple should be removed asap as well, esp because once it gets covered it renders the target vulnerable to melee trains - they become more or less a sitting duck, which is why draw can be superior to mend cond in case cripple gets covered too fast or if you're just too slow in noticing cripple. Once again, that is mostly the case with sins or dervs (crippling sweep and some leading dagger attacks). Otherwise, if you notice that cripple has been covered already and you dont have draw, just guardian the target and perhaps try to mend touch them (it is risky though, since u're basically offering yourself as a new sitting duck with ur mend touch recharging).

Similar goes for blind - remove asap, unless it is covered (like it usually is vs me/n's). In matches where you'll be facing a blinder that always covers their blinds you're screwed up in 80-90% of the time, unless you have a mend touch ranger who can d shot Signet of Midnight or your team only has 1 melee, which you might manage to keep clean with mend touch and some lucky mend conds (when the blind would not be covered, for example), but the likeliness that the melee will get off enough dps to score a kill or even just to put up enough pressure is still very low. Otherwise, if you see that blind is covered in vast majority of the instances when its applied, then you'll merely be burning down ur energy for nothing if you try removing the covers; yet, without being able to keep ur physicals clean (if you have any, that is) you cannot win either.

Weakness should only be remopved asap from melees, not so often from casters or yourself (unless it would lower the duration of, lets say, guardian from 6 seconds to 5 seconds) - even then, weakness should not be ur main priority if you are low on energy, but it is nevertheless still advisable that you at least keep if off the melee.

Daze should ofc be kept off from the casters, including yourself. This is one of the instances where purge signet or good timing with stance usage can be life saving (if the daze didnt come from a ranger, at least - in that case try to hide behind an obstacle and then purge urself). If you notice that daze has been covered on another caster, try to mend touch them. However, once u run up to them do not use mend touch right away since you'll be asking for an interrupt on your mend touch. Instead, wait a few seconds and then mend touch, possibly using a 40/40 set. If it was yourself who got dazed though, then switch to 40/40 set and hope for a fast cast (i had a few life-saving fast casts like that already). If you have a mend touch ranger in your team, then spam daze like crazy and run up to them hoping they will notice it in time and give u a mend touch.

Last but not least, cracked armor is the condition you should worry about the least, unless you are sitting in your shield set a lot (which is a must in arenas anyway) - then try to remove it asap too, as long as your energy allows it. If not, just make sure to guardian yourself before spikes or use ur stances well, if you dont have a guardian.

So to sum up, use your mend condition when you know you wont be merely wasting your energy by doing so - when you will efficiently remove a condition and thus help your team get a kill off, or when you can efficiently remove a condition and thus prevent a kill in your own team.

The whole story is a bit different for draw conditions though.

Lady Callingwell · May 07, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

When facing condition pressure it's often usefull to remove

A sever artery @ 14 sword lasts 24 (32 with bleeding mod) seconds, adding up to 144 (192) damage if it isn't removed!

Another example, a ranger spreading poison (so not reapplying on the same person), 11 (15) seconds equals 88 (120) damage.

Generally however like mentioned before the format your playing also affects what to remove or not, when there is a midline draw don't bother removing degen condition but let them be drawn along with the cripples and blinds, and in arenas against fully pressure oriented teams just remove when it allows you to make use of the full heal while removing.